tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post7370957767668574469..comments2023-12-10T11:54:42.104-05:00Comments on A Father Learning to Love: Checkmate For Hell - Part 1: Moves 1-3fatherlearningtolovehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17666749738952674625noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-6434245823207326962015-02-02T09:37:25.656-05:002015-02-02T09:37:25.656-05:00Thank you Ronald! God's peace to you.Thank you Ronald! God's peace to you.fatherlearningtolovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666749738952674625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-19593171508616643832015-02-01T17:36:25.971-05:002015-02-01T17:36:25.971-05:00I appreciate your well thought out scriptural poin...I appreciate your well thought out scriptural points in this essay that proves "that God WILL--'THELEI' (not wishes, desires, or wants--as many translations have it) have all mankind to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the Truth". Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05266898050878011150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-384849323608335712014-05-01T06:40:13.113-04:002014-05-01T06:40:13.113-04:00Ok, there are two points you're making that I ...Ok, there are two points you're making that I have to contend with. I want to focus on the empathy point for a moment before I move on to the other. I'd like for you to imagine someone you really care about - someone who is very special to you. And I'd like you to imagine that they didn't make it - they did not get "saved", but were annihilated. Does the fact that, rather than being in pain, they are just gone make the pain of their loss completely go away for you? Or, do you miss them? Could you explain this existence - with a hole in your soul - as eternal bliss?<br /><br />Now let's go to the other problem - I see that where Jesus says that nothing is impossible for God (Mt. 19:26), you seem to be creating wiggle room for yourself there. I don't see how - I see no wiggle room in that statement. But let's think about this - you've got a lost loved one. And this statement of Jesus' is starting to wear on you. You know that God has unlimited time and resources (at least that's what I believe, and because of your lost loved one, you're starting to wonder about it), so you're starting to wonder: "if nothing is impossible for God, couldn't He go back in time and grab the existing version of my loved one from that point and pull them forward in time? Or maybe, could He recreate my loved one?" You don't know how exactly God would do it, but you're starting to wonder if it is necessary for your loved one to be "gone" - maybe there's a way for them to exist again. <br /><br />See, the beauty of Universalism is that I don't reject free will (we have it - God does not demand His own way (I Cor. 13:5), as He is love (I Jn. 4:8 and 16)), I don't reject God's universal love and salvific will for all, and I don't try to create wiggle room for myself within statements like Mt. 19:26. To accept that anyone perishes "eternally" (either meaning that they are tormented for eternity, or that they cease to exist and there's no way to reverse the situation) requires that you either reject God's universal love and salvific will, OR you must create wiggle room within the statements I've highlighted in "Chess Move #1". But I don't see that wiggle room there - so it feels to me more like you have to outright reject them. And then God becomes a colossal failure, and I don't see how He's "God" any more.fatherlearningtolovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666749738952674625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-81698256153559417492014-05-01T01:44:14.332-04:002014-05-01T01:44:14.332-04:00I do not agree with your statement that "God&...I do not agree with your statement that "God's will is inescapable". Knowing that we have the freedom to choose, is it not possible that some will choose ideals other than God's to follow? In answer to your second point, I never said that God's offer of salvation has an expiry date, only that we do. While at any point that we are alive, God is willing / wanting to forgive us, after we are dead, we know nothing. Therefore, it is not that God's offer of salvation is over: only that we are.<br /><br />"This is empathy - to feel the joys and sorrows of the ones you love. Thus, I argue that anyone who possesses universal love would not be able to possess perfect bliss if anyone is eternally damned." This is only true if the damned are in pain, or if there had been a way to save them. According to my understanding, the damned are damned by their own choices, not God's. God wanted to save them, but they chose not to follow Him. This understanding of choice is what allows the blessed to remain so while in full knowledge that some people are damned (nonexistent, not torture).<br /><br /><br />I find it difficult to accept your conclusions since I do not accept your premise. I agree with your logic, but as I cannot agree with your a priori statements, I cannot agree with the conclusions you draw.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13892649707714176750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-3770192427832927732014-04-30T12:09:23.363-04:002014-04-30T12:09:23.363-04:00For some reason I cannot reply directly to your se...For some reason I cannot reply directly to your second commend, Erik. I'm glad you found that interesting.<br /><br />I would argue against the "option C" that this would not constitute true eternal bliss for the saints - I have followed that trail in this post:<br />http://fatherlearningtolove.blogspot.com/2013/10/another-logical-path-to-checkmate-and.html<br /><br />As to your second argument - I see nowhere in the Bible that says that the offer of salvation has an expiration date. On the contrary, it seems that there's always an opportunity to repent - so why persist in self-destructive behavior?fatherlearningtolovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666749738952674625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-89014396898889319652014-04-30T08:26:20.305-04:002014-04-30T08:26:20.305-04:00Very interesting read..
A few assumptions made by ...Very interesting read..<br />A few assumptions made by Dr. Talbott that I take issue with:<br />1. The false dichotomy between<br /> A. Eternal conscious torture<br /> B. Eternal bliss / happiness with God<br />I firmly believe that there exists an option C which is eternal nonexistence -- final destruction, (Revelation's "second death")<br />Following from that, my second point of contention<br />2. Dr. Talbott's argument depends on there being an infinite amount of time for God to influence the human mind.<br />As Dr. Talbott says, in order to preserve autonomy of the will, we cannot see everything perfectly clearly. That being said, we do not have an infinite amount of time left to live and to increase our understanding of God. There is only a finite amount of time for God to influence us, and if He does not succeed, He destroys us so that we are not in pain.<br />I completely agree that a fully enlightened person would never choose eternal torture willingly. However, as I said before, that is not the only option.<br />I had a hard time getting through the article because so much of it was based on the false dichotomy I mentioned above. If the dichotomy were true, that A and B were the only two options, I would concede that one must conclude that either all will be saved or that God is not good. <br />Separately, I posit that it is not God who condemns, but Satan, the accuser. God does everything in his power to redeem us, but if we condemn ourselves and are unwilling to accept his gift of Salvation, he will not save us.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13892649707714176750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-70636752084823116692014-04-29T16:39:05.858-04:002014-04-29T16:39:05.858-04:00I could try to get into a discussion with you as t...I could try to get into a discussion with you as to why I believe that even with free will (the Universalist can actually accept Predestination AND Freewill at once), all will eventually be saved. But as Dr. Thomas Talbott has done a MUCH better job exploring these concepts, I will point you to one particular essay of his where he talks about this:<br /><br />http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/DESTINY2.pdffatherlearningtolovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666749738952674625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-70961965464742936532014-04-29T13:36:21.945-04:002014-04-29T13:36:21.945-04:00While I completely agree that God cannot be both l...While I completely agree that God cannot be both loving and have an eternally burning hell of conscious torment (I am an annihilationist), I don't believe that God always gets exactly what he wants. <br /><br />My reasoning for that belief: Free will. Love does not force another to its own will. If everyone is saved, then we have no choice in the matter.<br /><br />You say that everyone will "eventually" be saved. What about someone who dies, truly believing that the sinful and unholy lifestyle they lived was the right one? What of people who consciously reject God and his ideals? Would God force them to live with Him? Do we not have the ability to choose our own fate? Or are we stuck being loved by a God that we may or may not care for?<br /><br />My biggest problem with universalism is the issue of free will / choice. A loving God would not force his love on someone who expresses specific disinterest in it. He might continue to try to convince them, but would not force their hand.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13892649707714176750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-9240235225816251692014-04-09T09:40:57.434-04:002014-04-09T09:40:57.434-04:00I have noticed that you haven't actually addre...I have noticed that you haven't actually addressed any of my points - you seem to have completely ignored them and then insisted that I answer your points. This is quite rude, and one cannot have a productive debate under these conditions. I have half a mind to delete your comment altogether. However, just for giggles, I'll answer a couple of your questions.<br /><br />On the subject of preaching about heaven and hell - Jesus didn't preach about heaven! He preached about the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. If you had continued reading my series (which I almost doubt you read any of it at all), you would have seen that I covered this:<br />http://fatherlearningtolove.blogspot.com/2013/09/checkmate-for-hell-part-12.html<br /><br />Also, I think you should examine how Jesus actually preached - it's quite different from the heaven/hell paradigm of evangelism:<br />http://fatherlearningtolove.blogspot.com/2013/12/preaching-gospel-in-paradigm-of.html<br /><br />For your question about Jesus dying on the cross - the Universalist doesn't believe that people "get into heaven" period. They believe that EVENTUALLY, all will be redeemed. THROUGH CHRIST. But it will happen. The redeemed don't get to continue being hellish - they must go through the "refiner's fire" where wood, hay and stubble are burned away. They must have their sin burned away. <br /><br />Might I suggest that you reconsider atonement theology:<br />http://www.jamesalison.co.uk/texts/eng11.html<br /><br />Now you ask about the rich man and Lazarus - which demonstrates that you haven't read anything I wrote, because I covered that here:<br />http://fatherlearningtolove.blogspot.com/2013/09/checkmate-for-hell-part-2-moves-4-5.html<br /><br />So at this point, I stop - if you come back here and actually address any of my points, rather than trying to bombard me with your own, we can have a dialogue. If not, your comments will be deleted.fatherlearningtolovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666749738952674625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-90021744395443843802014-04-09T02:29:12.600-04:002014-04-09T02:29:12.600-04:00There are a few questions I would raise to you if ...There are a few questions I would raise to you if everyone goes to heaven in the end. <br /><br />1. Why did Jesus preach more on hell then on heaven<br /><br />2. Why did Jesus die on the cross if we all go to heaven anyways <br /><br />3. You mentioned that a loving God could not send someone to hell. <br />The thing about God is yes He is loving but He is also Holy, and it's because of His holiness that He cannot allow sin in His presence. Would God be loving if he allowed unrepentant murderers and rapists, satanists and people who have commited horrible atrocities into heaven? <br />4. What about the story of Lazarus and the rich man who was in hell<br />5.explain in revelation when God sends those at the great white throne judgement into eternal punishment<br /><br />6. The thing about hell is it was never originally designed for people it was designed for satan and his angels. Because of sin hell has become the default state that those who have not been reconciled with God go.<br /><br />God doesn't send anyone to hell, He has provide away for every person to be saved by trusting Christ if anyone goes to hell it is because they never accepted Christ's finished work on the cross <br /><br />You mentioned how could a loving God send anyone to hell who hasn't heard the gospel. Read Romans 1 it talks about how no one is without excuse because of creation itself which speaks of Gods existence, God says those who seek me with all their heart will find me. There have been stories of Jesus appearing to people and them being saved <br /><br />I would caution you greatly on your view of universalism because this is exactly what the anti Christ will be teaching or similar things "oh it doesn't matter what religion you are just do good to one another" <br /><br />I sincerely hope you will rethink try views on this subject and I will be praying for God to open your eyes to the subject <br /><br />Some sources to check out would be Charlie Campbell at alwaysbeready.org<br /><br />Ron Rhodes at http://www.ronrhodes.org/articles/is-universalism-biblical.html<br /><br />And billy crone on youtube he has a few sermons on hell <br /><br />one minute into eternity part 1: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qZlV4HivqFM<br /><br />Billy crone one minute into eternity part 2: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vsI1gg40D4w<br /><br />Billy crone one minute into eternity part 3: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KaFygVUWNBw<br /><br />Billy crone one minute into eternity part 4:<br />http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcqabEcqgH0<br /><br />Billy crone please don't go to hell <br /><br />Part 1: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iXTdTBKlSbM<br /><br />Part 2: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lcGLzq7BHZA<br /><br />Part 3: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yiE74_w2Bvo<br /><br />Part 4: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm70imHS-fw<br />HeIsRisenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04249650183552515879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-47754843044818102632013-10-05T14:01:11.690-04:002013-10-05T14:01:11.690-04:00Thank you, Juan! Yes, God is good all the time! ...Thank you, Juan! Yes, God is good all the time! Looks like you have a very good start on your blog - keep at it! :Dfatherlearningtolovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666749738952674625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-42016640857426987642013-10-05T13:41:48.986-04:002013-10-05T13:41:48.986-04:00I too am a universalist.
I got to your blog throug...I too am a universalist.<br />I got to your blog through the Evangelical Universalists Forum.<br />I can't wait to slowly read the entire series and comment throughout.<br /><br />I myself just started blogging ( http://jcarlostzavala.blogspot.mx/ ) and plan on writing down my thoughts on the subject soon.<br /><br />God is good:) Juan C. Torreshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13001906513541272041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-23948021162349124722013-09-20T08:20:19.780-04:002013-09-20T08:20:19.780-04:00Thank you! I appreciate the compliment! :)Thank you! I appreciate the compliment! :)fatherlearningtolovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666749738952674625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-17387780239663240612013-09-20T07:52:59.952-04:002013-09-20T07:52:59.952-04:00Great start Geoff. I look forward to reading more....Great start Geoff. I look forward to reading more. Great to have you over at the evangelicaluniversalist.Nimblewillsgracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06969371891493307261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-12316268924012834612013-09-13T17:02:09.327-04:002013-09-13T17:02:09.327-04:00Thank you for your gracious and warm compliment, C...Thank you for your gracious and warm compliment, Christy! Today, I need it! Been catching some pushback this week....fatherlearningtolovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17666749738952674625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5679059780978866194.post-51656798612302021092013-09-13T12:48:44.311-04:002013-09-13T12:48:44.311-04:00This is great Geoff. Very clearly thought out and ...This is great Geoff. Very clearly thought out and well articulated. You're looking for truth in an honest, open way and I appreciate your approach. You answer some really tough questions with a gentle voice. I look forward to reading more as time permits.Christyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10296558821768341452noreply@blogger.com